Posts by moggy lover

10

michael/jesus

by gspradling in

jw
friends

i know this has been discussed until you are all probably sick of it, but i have been trying to find a watchtower quote on exactly how michael became jesus.

i have googled it and checked my books throughly without any success.

thanks in advance

If you are looking for a WTS apologia on how they derive a Michael/Jesus relationsip, their latest publication "What does the Bible Really Teach" - [Subtitled: No, honest, this time we really, really got it right, promise - at least till the next edition] has an extensive section at the back in the appendix. Theres nothing new in there but it is comprehensive as you will get. If you don't have the book someone may be able to scan the relative pages for you. I believe it is also available for download at Reorganize.com.

For a rebuttal, there are several web sites available, such as MacGregor Ministries and others

Cheers

13

Does the Watchtower use Gnostic principles to control its slaves?

by Gill in

the watchtower is noted for its extreme stand on many issues, including life and death issues.. i'm thinking of things such as blood, of course, christmas, birthdays, holidays, private marriage issues etc.. the recent watchtower on the 'antichrist' had me thinking of their criticism of gnostic beliefs and how they worded it is as follows~.

'ideas of a purely symbolic resurrection were later developed by a group called gnostics.

believeing that knowledge could be derived in a mystical way, gnostics combined apostate christianity with greek philosophy and oriental mysticism.

moggy lover

The relationship between the WTS and Gnostic thought is at once both complex and prolix. Insofar as the Gnostics were a summation of several belief systems that proposed salvation through the incremental acceptance of a specialized "gnosis" - knowledge, then yes, we can see a relavance in this relationship. To paraphrase the WT dictum based on John 17:3, the Gnostic idea would be something like: "This means everlasting life, taking in knowledge of us, the only true mystics, and the mysticism we gradually unfold"

However it simply is not possible to explore every ramification of expression that summed up Gnosticism, since it was not a homogeneous system of either religion or philosophy, but embraced many diversified sects holding opinions from a great variety of original sources.There were indeed several theosophies that claimed a Gnostic heritage, many of these predating Christianity. It was, in the formative years of Christianity, as it is today, an amalgam into which a number of different elements have been infused.

For instance, out of the basic Gnostic idea that matter, including the human body, was evil, it soon settled on the notion that the only realm worth exploring was that of the spirit, uncontaminated by base matter and which was good. As a consequence of this, many Gnostics came to believe that since the body was evil, the only course of life to live was that of asceticsm, while others came to exactly the opposite conclusion, that since the body was evil, it made no difference what one did, hence they tended to live what we today would define as loose, immoral lives.

At once a speculative, suble, and elaborate series of theosophic ideas, it endeavoured to introduce into the historic Church, in its infancy, when its theological muscle was still undeveloped, a so-called "higher knowledge" which attempted to displace the centrality of Christ with mystical idealism. Indeed various aspects of Gnostic thought appealed to many of the early church apologists, while at the same time others repelled them.

Probably another aspect of Gnosticism that resembles WT theology was the early Gnostic penchant for allegorizing or extensively spiritualizing the OT and its historicity. A reading of several Wt magazines in which wildly speculative fantasies are spun out - Noah's ark = the Org, for example, captures at least to a provident level, this Gnostic principle. This kind of inferential theology was stretched to levels of total absurdity under the reign of JFR, his book "Enemies" being a prime example.

Recent new finds and the fuller examination of older pieces of literature will, I am certain, along with the possibilty of further finds, expand our understanding of Gnosticism and its influence, not always benign in early Christianity

Cheers

11

Hebrews 10:24,25 ???

by Little Bo Peep in

if meeting together is to be taken to mean, five meetings a week that we must never miss, what about the command at rom 16:16, that says to greet one another with a kiss, or mt 6:9, you must pray this way???

jw's don't greet one another with a kiss, nor do they pray the lords prayer.. peep.

moggy lover

Very good point, Little Bo Peep. Remember, too, that the exhotation at Heb 10:24, 25 applies, at least to the author of Hebrews, only to the "anointed" since he talks of "us" not forsaking the gathering of ourselves. Who is this "us"? Well.... Vs 19 talks of "we" who can enter the "holy place"- which the WTS understands to be heaven, and vs 23 talks of "us" having "our hope". The argument of the author is that on the basis of this heavenly hope, we have this obligation to encourage one enother. After all, this heavenly hope is beyond the experience of human creatures, so "we" need all the encouragement we can get.

Evidently, through the strange alchemy of WT theology, the "Us" in vss 19 - 23 applies only to the 144k, but in vs 24, it transmutes into everyone in the WTS, and then re-settles back to the "anointed" in vs26 and following. Yeah, right.

Go figure.

Cheers

6

"Lies and Medicine Water"--The WT is worse than the world!

by Atlantis in

the watchtower society claims that every word of their literature is carefully scrutinized before it is fed to their flock.

this would indicate that the use of "medicine water", to drive away evil spirits from a person or place, or lying to house-holders to gain converts is not only condoned, but honored enough for this experience to be included in their most cherished feeding tool, the watchtower.

please note these points: 1. the jw in this experience wants her sister to become a servant of "the theocracy"and mentions nothing about being a servant of god.

moggy lover

Thanks for this informative and very interesting post, Big A, as you said, the WTS has a weakness for exploiting the more folklorish attitudes of its future converts than is absolutely necessary. In fact it is clear to us who have been in a long time, that this exploitation is indeed endemic to their recruiting technique.

There is a realization among many of us who were former "inmates" of this loony-toon world, that the WTS is the sum of of several competing ironies that are simultaneously contradictory as they are base. For instance, they profess to uphold a system of belief which hinges on a total belief in the true God of the Bible, maintaining this charade with copious references to "pagan influences" that others have supposedly adopted, yet they themselves indulge in practices that would have seen them stoned for demonic activity in OT times.

That article you quoted from was an item which appeared in the 50s, when Freddy Flintstone Franz was at his peak. This was the time when he was quoting with great frequency, and obvious relish, his little mate, Johannes Greber, knowing full well at that time he was an occult enthusiast. If Freddy could have approved of a demonist like Greber, it is only a short step to being one himself. I'm always suspicious when the WTS claims to have "new light flashing UP" because it clearly outlines to me the direction from which that "light" originated - from the depths of the unclean.

Unfortunately I do not have the particular WT with me, but my notes tell me that this quaint expression occurs in the Feb 15 WT of 1984, page 11, para 6.

In the 50s, incidently, I was privileged to live in India, and I personally knew of many Gilead missionaries who encouraged their newer converts, when under a perceived demonic attack, to wave the WT magazine aloft, particularly with the cover which had the ju-ju word "jehover" on it, to ensure the warding off of such attacks. At various meetings, many claimed sucess while recounting "experiences" of this, and were hansomely applauded.That this was a contradiction of Lu 9:49, did'nt seem to bother them

Cheers

7

Leolaia - A little question about Greek for you...or anyone else :)

by rassillon in

leolaia,.

being the resident scholar around here can you answer me a question.

first off i did read your extended piece on the cross.

moggy lover

It is true that ancient Greek went through different historical periods. What is referred to as the "Pre-Homeric period" lasted upto the 10th cent BC. The classical period came into effect, when georaphy and politics [ex the city-states which were independant entities] caused Greek to fracture into several dialects, four of which became predominant: Aeolic, Doric, Ionic, and by far the most influencial, Attic. Attic was in fact a direct offspring of Ionic. It owed its prominence to the fact that it was the dialect of ancient Athens. Since Athens was the political and literary centre of Greece during its "golden age"of literature, its form of language slowly gained assendancy. Usually, Attic and Classical Greek are regarded as synonymous terms.

With Greece going international with the conquests of Alexander, Greek again went through a revolutionary change, this time transmuting into the language we now know as "Koine" Greek. This was about 330 BC - 330AD

Like all languages, ancient Greek was a living organism and took on linguistic characteristics and modifications that were potent for its time. This went as far as vocabulary.When Greece came into contact with other cultural influences like that of Persia, it absorbed the nuances of that culture which was reflected in a broading of the dictionary meanings of words.

This was the case in point for a word like "stauros" It is true that in Attic Greek times, ie the time of Homer [ca 600BC], the word simply meant a "Stake" [nothing connoting "torture" was attached to the word] But that is not the point. The NT was written in Koine times, when Greek came in contact with the cultural influences of Rome. Rome had a word for their instrument of execution for criminals, and that was the "crux", a word for which there was no equivalent in Greek, so the word "stauros" was used to describe this instrument. Thus by NT times stauros was = to the Latin crux. Yes the "[Human] Reasoning" book is dishonest in that it insists on using an anachronistic meaning of "stauros" for its own purposes.

It's like using the word "suffer" as used in KJV English, as in "Suffer the little children" to imply that Jesus was referring to the inflicting of pain on little children.In KJV English times the word "suffer" simply meant to "permit"

Cheers

89

The JW phrase I most despise is...

by exwitless in

jw
friends

"need greaters" ugh!!

i hate that phrase and i always have.

we knew a jw couple who applied every year to bethel and giliad until the age cut-off (age 35 or 40?).

moggy lover

The one that used to get my goat was "appreciate" They were always "appreciating" something or another.At the door they "appreciated" the householder's attention. At the meetings they were always "appreciating" the CO's talk, the WT study, the ministry school etc...etc... I often felt that if I heard that word once more I'd shove a very long stick up a tender part of the speaker's anatomy.

Cheers

8

Jehovah's Witnesses by F. E. Mayer 1942

by Atlantis in

"jehovah's witnesses by f. e. mayer" this 52 page booklet was published in 1942 (the same year rutherford died), and was then revised in 1943. if you would like to download the whole booklet then send me a [pm].

the front cover of this booklet looks like this: http://www.wirefiles.com/show.php/7789_mayer10001.jpg cheers!

atlantis-

moggy lover

A PM is duly on the way

Cheers

44

How do you combat laziness?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

i didn't say "unmotivated" or "lacking direction" or any of the other euphemisms i typically apply to it.

i said what i meant, and i do mean it.. but i can't imagine it has to be this way.

surely there's something i can do to combat it.

moggy lover

Oddly enough, I have found that I learned a great deal about combatting laziness by simply observing Miss Moggy, my cat.

The best way to comat inertia is to sleep on it !

Cheers

14

Jehovah's Witnesses beneath the Tower of fear!

by Atlantis in

jw
friends

(please delete if already posted).. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-yr5fw1udu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-yr5fw1udu.

.

moggy lover

Hot damn Atlantis, truly awesome !! Great research material for those of us addicted to WTS material.

You have excelled yourself, again, as usual.

May you be blessed with a thousand [self supporting] sons, and may your fridge never rub out of Pepsi

Cheers

13

Removal of YHWH from Old Testament

by ackack in

part of the jw's argument for the inclusion in the jehovah is that there was a custom to remove it from the old testament.

is that true?

am i even getting the argument right?

moggy lover

Hi, AA, No the issue is'nt the OLT Testament but the NEW. YHWH occurs at least 6000 times in the Heb text of the OT but is patently absent from the New. To most intelligent people the reason is obvious: Whereas the OT was a "dispensation" that reached out to a tribal community living in a distinct part of the world, and represented their distinctive culture and committment to a religious faith, and their worship of a distictive, almost tribal, God, the New Testament has a different thrust.

Its purpose is to provide a "Dispensation" that reaches out to the global community of peoples, all of whom share the one common denominator in that all are mortal. The New Testament makes the extraordinary claim that the divine provision for escaping this peril is a "new" name, that of JESUS. Acts 4:12

Not content with that biblical explanation, the WTS has to see a diabolically contrived conspiracy which saw the "removal" of this name from the NT hence its inclusion in the NT of the WTS "translation" Of course in replacing the name in the NT, the delicate need was, not simply to replace the Tetragrammaton in the NT, but to do this with selectivity so as not to prejudice the integrity of an already existing WT theology.

Cheers